eCommerce Conversion Secrets with Erik Christiansen, CEO of Justuno

[00:00:00] So if you're an email marketer and your boss has said you need to get an email list of 500, 000, guess what? And you control the marketing on the website, guess what you're gonna go after? You're going to go after emails. Now, is that healthy for the business?

[00:00:17] I'm Max Thilen, host of the Learning to Scale podcast and co founder of Opuscope. In this episode, I spoke with Eric Christiansen, CEO and co founder of Just Uno, a company that helps turn website visitors into customers. We talked about how Eric got his first paying customer 14 years ago, the evolving landscape of e commerce, the Amazon effect, and his inside take on the future of conversion rate optimization.

[00:00:40] I learned a ton on how to approach website optimization from Eric, which is no surprise given he's dedicated the last 14 years of his life to this stuff. If you're involved in e com and interested in figuring out how to maximize the value of your website visitors, you won't want to miss this episode.

[00:00:54] Yeah. Death by a million cuts is like the, we go through the SaaS list, uh, you know,

[00:00:59] yeah, I'm a

[00:00:59] SAS tool. He sent it to me the other day, especially like, you know, we were in the business. So we're both kind of just like. Be doing something and be like, Oh, this 9 a month sass will make this easier. Bought it.

[00:01:10] And then now we have like,

[00:01:11] well, that's, that's the genius. Like, so if I was to start a new company today, it would be seat based. It either be have transactional revenue or seat based because these seat ones are what kill us is that, Oh, and it free me a model too. You know, classic is the gong. Everyone wants, you know, gong super expensive.

[00:01:27] Whatever. So there's new tools, Firefly. It's like, yeah, it's free. Cool. You can try it out team for, I know it, you know, it's up to three, 400 bucks a month. It's like, wait, I thought this was gonna be a free tool. Yeah. Yeah. But it does all this. Yeah. They got us in and then guess what? There's another new one in eight months that they switch to, but forget to cancel that one.

[00:01:49] And

[00:01:50] I'll be curious your thoughts because this is something that I was, I don't know all that much about, but I bet you, given the, like what you, what you're doing, you probably have a much more insightful perspective, but like the, I was watching a video the other day about the Apple price ladder, you know, I think it was like a Marques Brownlee video or something, but it's like, you'll, you'll go look at it.

[00:02:07] It's like, okay, I want an iPad. So you go to like the cheapest iPad. And then it's like, You look at, okay, well it's 64 gigs. Well, I'm not going to get anywhere with 64 gigs. So I get it to 128 or 256 and then, Oh, well at 256, it's only a hundred dollars less than like the cheaper model at the next year. And then before you know it, you're walking out the door with like an iPad pro and the keyboard and like you wanted to spend 300 bucks, but you spent two grand, you know,

[00:02:27] did you buy a 300 case to, to protect that investment?

[00:02:31] Yeah, exactly. No, I got that rip off folio keyboard though. Yeah.

[00:02:34] I was into kind of, you know, how people are engaging with brands and everything. And like for me, YouTube is, is everything right now.

[00:02:42] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For a lot of smart people I talk to, that's how they consume content. I was talking to a guy yesterday who's, you know, brilliant guy and like doing some super cool stuff and he's like, yeah, I just, I just have YouTube in the background all the time, listen to a podcast.

[00:02:56] And then if some, if something interesting happens, it's like, what was that? And then he goes and rewinds and And like, that's this whole process. We're finding information about like learning new things, stuff like that.

[00:03:06] I mean, you were looking at your production studio here and we were talking about, you know, What's the last, the next?

[00:03:13] Kind of last frontier of what people can create and not AI or whatever and with the ID buzz There was they put them on display. Yeah, and so it's fun. There's all these people You can see them even in the background people doing videos Everyone's trying to create their marketable video about it so they could be their own expert

[00:03:34] There have you seen the have you seen like the influencers in the wild Instagram page?

[00:03:38] No, if you want to have a good time, that's so good. Like you just

[00:03:44] Would these be new age affiliates?

[00:03:47] Influencers in the wild,

[00:03:49] like just, I noticed, um, I think it was Klaviyo, they call their affiliates influencers.

[00:03:56] Really?

[00:03:56] Cause we were talking about affiliate marketing earlier.

[00:03:59] I think B2B is trying to figure out, figure that stuff out and I'm sure, you know, we don't do, we don't do a ton, so I don't have like a bunch of hands on experience with it of course, but I think that like, it's definitely going to be one of those things where like some companies get it right and most of them get it so wrong cause they're like B2B tools.

[00:04:17] You're talking about like software, right? And it's all you can just like. If you're like a consumer brand, like I sell t shirts or whatever, shoes or a skateboard or a bike or whatever, you just like. Find someone in your space that does the thing and like send them the thing. And then, okay, go like try out my cool bike or whatever.

[00:04:30] But like when it's like B2B software that has like integration requirements and other stuff that you can't, so that it just ends up the whole purpose of influencer, I feel like is for it to be authentic. So like. if the end thing of your influencer strategy is not authentic, like probably don't bother in the first place cause it's not going to resonate with anyone cause it's going to be obviously just paid someone to say, Oh, our product's so good.

[00:04:51] You know?

[00:04:51] Well, you know, e commerce, which is primarily who we work with user generated contents. You really, it's, it's, Really, I think everyone's still trying to figure it out, you know, and it's more of the micro

[00:05:05] influencers.

[00:05:06] Um, I, and, and, you know, I'm still, we work with some really good partners actually invested into a company that has a credible platform on it, but paid aspect of it, are people paying to amplify their user, their own users generated content?

[00:05:24] I think what, you know, I think what, what will sometimes happen in work is like you'll get. You get a bunch of UGC and of course there's a million ways to skin the cat, right? Uh, and, and, you know, to be clear, like I have a, you know, obviously experience with paid, but I don't run all the like paid strategy at OpenScope.

[00:05:42] That's my co founder is the one that's like the, the expert on actually how you would implement that. But I think probably what, what he would say would be that it would be some, you know, you get this UGC content, you kind of probably see how it all does organically. And then how it does organically, because you don't want to just spend, put paid budget behind everything you want to put paid budget behind certain things and also certain things might work organically and might not work for paid and you have to actually think of like what outcome you're trying to drive.

[00:06:08] Right? Um, but it, I think it's a lot of like you get the content and then you kind of iterate into it. So you like. Have the organic content. See how that does. Maybe you boost the post. See how that does. Maybe you turn some of the posts into ads. You see how they do. It's just about testing it in different areas.

[00:06:24] And then there's a lot of other stuff that you can do, right? Okay. I hear I'm talking a lot about like creating audiences off of video plays and things like that. So then it's like, okay, maybe. Maybe the video wasn't the thing, but like being able to create the audience or like have a convert, have some kind of conversion action or something on the video play.

[00:06:40] And then like that goes into an audience and then now you can market at them and so on and so forth. Like it's certainly not enough to just take the UGC content, put some ads behind and expect it to sell. Right.

[00:06:49] Can you, I was just thinking, can you promote and boost someone else's posts? No, I don't think so.

[00:06:57] That'd be kind of crazy. Yeah.

[00:06:58] Anyone want to advertise boost my ads? Why would you think about that happening?

[00:07:03] Well, I mean, you know, cause there's content out there you could take, you know, like you say, you have user generated content, you could package it up into a reel and then promote it out. Yeah. But if you're like, let's say you're branding you reviewing all your, all your own micro influencers and you're like, that's a really good one.

[00:07:23] I want to. Promote that pay to like amplify it.

[00:07:27] Yeah, it's a good question. I don't, I don't know how it works. If there's like an influencer deal that probably starts to get an influencer. Here's the thing with influencer that like, and we, you know, I think we have a kind of a position on this, which is that like, we don't do any influencer.

[00:07:41] at Opus scope. And part of the reason for that is, is through just observations from having worked with a lot of companies that run influencer and work with influencer agencies, right? Like we're oftentimes, we're not the only agency there. And I feel like some influencer agency is going to hear this obviously, and they're going to hate it.

[00:07:56] But what we've seen is that the company gets the best outcome when they work directly with the influencer and they don't get the best outcome when they work with the influencer agency. And the reason is that, right. At the end of the day, the influencer agency has to run a business. And so if the influencer agency, let's say is like not getting billed timely by the influencer, and then that's influencing how they're able to invoice the client, and then it's making them look bad and so on and so forth.

[00:08:22] And so the influencer agency. ends up optimizing for not necessarily the best influencer, but the influencer that does business the best. And then that's not necessarily in line with who's the best. And also what you're talking about, like micro influencers, oftentimes it's not, you don't want the one. And again, like I'm getting out of my depth here.

[00:08:39] I'm no influencer expert, but like you often don't want the million follower person. You want the like, 20 smaller people who probably might not have the business op shaken out and it's better for the company to have the relationship and do all that stuff. And so on. I think we just get off influencers.

[00:08:55] It's all about scale because like using the influencer agency, I don't think is at all the way to go. It's all about micro influencers who like people and what do what people want to talk about, you know, in our world, um, and how to build a sustainable business is product led growth. You have a product that people want to talk about.

[00:09:13] Yeah.

[00:09:14] You know, it's so cool. Everyone's like buzzing to talk about, just like the 80 buzz, like crazy

[00:09:20] insights start with a good product. Yeah. Yeah. It's like,

[00:09:23] and that, you know, and that is what's going to help, you know, it's a great idea. You know, and then if you even think about, you know, going, if you're, you know, I remember the last thing I bought off Instagram was, uh, like a back roller.

[00:09:37] I was like up at like 2, 3 AM, you know, with my daughter and, and my back was hurting. And of course I'm scrolling. It's like, looks like the coolest back roller thing in the world.

[00:09:46] Yeah, it

[00:09:46] was a beautiful product with social proof because they had all the reviews, everything, the whole experience. So that, you know, and it was a promoted, promoted ad.

[00:09:58] Here's how, you know, hard, hard pivot. How long have you been running your business? Like how many years in are you guys?

[00:10:05] I just, you know, we're in our 14th year.

[00:10:07] 14th. Yeah. So you and you bootstrapped it

[00:10:10] still to this day.

[00:10:12] So start profitable started at 14 years ago. How, how'd, what was the. You know, I feel like in this day and age, like every, I mean, certainly not everybody thinks about the, it thinks about this way, but a lot of people probably, they're like, Oh, I'm going to start a software business.

[00:10:25] I have to get a bunch of venture funding and you know, certainly environments change and whatever, but nonetheless. Like, what were the, what was, what was, what was the early days like? Like, how did you, how did you do that? How do you, how did you get to your first 10 customers? Let's make it more specific.

[00:10:41] Uh, well, the first thing I did is I, I lived below my means when I was, when we're running our other businesses that I saved. So for four years, I didn't take a paycheck in San Francisco, living in San Francisco. Uh, that's how I survived. And that's how I survived without funding. Uh, we also, um, we were in beta, I think, I forget, for a year or two building, and just building up a freemium user base.

[00:11:08] So the first phone call I made was to a client that said, hey, coming out of beta, have we earned your business? And I did it on the phone. And they said yes. I go, what do you think about 75 a month? Um, how do you come up with that number? It was like part of our plan. And, uh, it was so long. You could, you could say something, but you'd be mad.

[00:11:30] I remember it being, it was probably maybe 79. It was something like that. And. It was, and then, you know, we started converting a few more, a few more. And for now we had 2, 000 in reoccurring revenue. And my co founder and I, um, we, we were also, he had started at that time, two other companies and I was part of two others.

[00:11:51] And, um, as soon as we took it out of beta and started charging and had revenue, we're like, this is real. Yeah. Um, and. Um, we each eventually backed out of the two other companies and all the money that we were bringing in, we hired our first employee,

[00:12:07] first employees. How long was that from the day you started working on it until the first employee?

[00:12:14] Uh, let's see, well, Robbie Hammett's been with us for going on 11 years. Nice. Shout out Robbie. Yeah. Uh, just spent three days in Vegas with, uh, with the team. Robbie was there. We also saw some old employees that were, had been with us for six, seven years. Um, you know, we're, we definitely run this company.

[00:12:35] Like we invest in our people. Yeah. We were slightly different how we do everything.

[00:12:43] And what did, like, what do you actually do? What do we actually do? Yeah. What is it? What does

[00:12:49] Justin actually do? Well, sorry I said I wasn't going to ask any questions like that, but I'm, you know, it's funny you ask that is that um, I, you know, 14 years ago I sat down with a kind of a personal advisor and his advice to me was, You know, cause I was looking at what to do.

[00:13:05] Like I built a, uh, one of the first social commerce businesses. We built this incredible platform all around snowboarders and serious snowboard. com and we grew up sustainably through building community and which then had all these ripple effects to grow, you know, grow our business. And, um, I thought I wanted to go like work for Airbnb and grow their community when they were starting.

[00:13:29] Um, and I, you know, I was trying to figure out what to do next. And I had come from an entrepreneurial background as well. And a personal advisor said the best thing you could ever do in life is invest in yourself. And so I, I kind of took that advice and, and we took just, you know, which was a concept we had running the snowboard company.

[00:13:48] As we recognize that visitors that came, um, They would leave, they'd Google Sierra Snowboard coupon code, and they would come back and had a sales conversion rate of 8 12%. And that concept of what if we show that coupon to them on the site. Um, and when we launched it, we got laughed off the street. No one wanted to, they said, if someone's on our website, why would I give him a coupon code?

[00:14:17] And no one wants a pop up.

[00:14:19] We'll get every e commerce website now.

[00:14:21] And so, so we brought pop ups to the market. And so when you go to a website, you did that to the

[00:14:28] internet.

[00:14:29] Um, we didn't do the, the ad ad ones. This is when you're on a website. Yeah, yeah, no, no. Um, like the modal. Yeah. And, you know, so if you go website right now and you see you go there and we do like 10 percent off, here's your email, um, fast forward, you know, 14 years, these pop ups are still dumb and you still see this, you still get asked for an email after you've given it to them so many times.

[00:14:51] So I just went to lunch. It's funny as, um, three weeks ago with the same personal business advisor, um, And I'll give Bill Hutchinson a shout out right now, um, Hutchinson Capital. And, uh, you know, he said, you know, what are you doing now? I'm like, Oh, we're still doing just doing it. He's like, well, what's the present day?

[00:15:14] And I told him, he said, his advice was, look, you had the vision early on. Don't look to three months, look to the next two to five years. And that helped us because we were coming, we've been rebuilding our platform and we've been working on our brand messaging or go to market, what do we do? And, and so what we're doing now is we're really taking what digital marketers have come to love with marketing automation, with email marketing and SMS marketing and creating personalized messaging, um, with that convert and engage at higher rate and applying that to the website experience.

[00:15:49] Okay, nice. And like, What was your background before you did all this? Are you, do you have an engineering background or?

[00:15:58] I, uh, no. I, my, my dad's an entrepreneur. My grandpa was. My dad was a computer developer. So I've always been around. We had a Commodore 64s. I've always been around computers. I went into college as um, uh, managerial economics.

[00:16:15] And then, um, same as my older brother. And then he switched to environmental design and I followed his footsteps, but I still minored in business. And then I, uh, studied, uh, computer, uh, science. I didn't get the minor, but I took a bunch of courses. And then at that time, um, web design was kind of starting.

[00:16:37] So actually intern. So the best thing I ever did in college was interning. I interned at left field. It was one of the first, uh, uh, digital. What do you call it? Um, interactive advertising agency. And we were doing like banners for like Amazon. Um, and you know, get them down to 13 K, whatever. And the people I worked with there, you know, I asked them, what's the future?

[00:17:02] And they're like, you gotta, you gotta do web design. Okay. So I got a web design and then got sick of computers, did sales for a year. And then,

[00:17:10] and then just, you know, or,

[00:17:11] and then, uh, then the snowboard e commerce. Okay. Uh, you know, miscellaneous stuff in between.

[00:17:17] Yeah.

[00:17:17] Bye. Um, yeah, I've been my own been doing just, you know, for 14 years.

[00:17:23] Nice.

[00:17:24] Do you, nowadays, do you, do you still spend a lot of time talking to customers? Like,

[00:17:29] uh, so I mentioned I launched my podcast conversion show to try to force me to talk with more. It's one of those things where I wish I could talk with customers more. Um, but every time I do, I learn so much. Yeah. And so I'm trying to get back into that now that I'm out of like the, uh, you know, Total operational stuff.

[00:17:48] It's nice to be able to just pick up the phone.

[00:17:50] Yeah, and just, just chat them

[00:17:51] up. Yeah, which is kind of a funny thing is like this. Now if you have any heard like what's the easiest way to talk with customers, you know, you think it'd be an easy thing Yeah, just pick a phone. Just pick a phone call him, but it's not that easy.

[00:18:04] Obviously you can have user conventions Sure, you can like sit in calls, but email on schedule. Uh, yeah, you know office hours, you know, I would love to actually hear Um, how other CEOs are able to engage with their customers. Yeah. Interesting. That's a good question.

[00:18:18] I'll add that to the, uh, I would love some feedback.

[00:18:20] Podcast. Yeah, that's a good idea. I think you prompted that. I'm just gonna start doing this. I'm gonna start asking the guests, what questions should I ask? Other insert your like title role function here.

[00:18:30] That was a recommendation. Um, Jane Sarah used to be my VP of marketing. She has a, um, she's down in Florida.

[00:18:37] Um, she runs a podcast woman and, um, B2B air woman in marketing. And she gave me that question to ask and guess, and it's still a question someone gave me, which, which I still use just generally, which is if you could pause everything right now and just focus on one thing in your business, what would it be?

[00:18:58] Cut out all the noise, just solve one problem. What would you spend a week? Um, it's what I've been focusing on is our, our go to market messaging. Go to market messaging. And right now what it is is what is that one use case that's so powerful that And how do we package it up and in, in video form as well, that we can amplify out to the world.

[00:19:19] Makes sense. Why you're thinking about customer interviews. Yeah. So have, how have you been, how have you been like approaching that? What's your process like? Like when you, when you think, I'm curious what, like, I'm sure now you're in it, right? But at some point you identified that like, Oh, I got to start working on our go to market messaging.

[00:19:39] Yeah. What did you, what was it like? What was the thing? What did you?

[00:19:44] I wish I could tell you. It was like this clean pathway and road. Um, the one thing was is looking at the market and the different. methodologies out there. Donald Miller, uh, he does his, uh, story of brand. Um, and Dave Gerhart is, does a similar thing.

[00:20:04] I think it's like exit five. And it's really the same concept of as a brand, you want to be a guide and your client has a problem and you're guiding them to solve that problem. So really, you know, you're that mentor. And you know, it's why training and education is so important in, in business today is you need to, as we were talking about before is.

[00:20:27] Truth is most people have a sense of what they're doing, but they don't. Some people are experts, but then, you know, you have the rest of the environment, the ecosystem that they work in.

[00:20:36] Yeah. We're all figuring it all out. Yeah.

[00:20:38] Yeah. And you know, you know, even like in the conversion space, yeah, people want it, but they don't know how to approach it.

[00:20:45] Yeah. No, that's the biggest problem with conversions. People don't understand what to do with their websites still.

[00:20:50] And there's a million things you could do.

[00:20:52] A million things you can do. And there's no tool to help them guide them at scale. There's a tool for email marketing and you can't email every single one of your customers in a personalized way, but you can with marketing automation.

[00:21:05] Right. Um, same with SMS. Well, we want to provide that for the website experience.

[00:21:11] Okay.

[00:21:11] And so that's, we had to like drill down and figure out what is the problem. that people have and then build a tool around it. So what it got us there was, you know, kind of figuring out what that problem is and then how can we build a structure around it to help solve it.

[00:21:25] So identify like the core, like the problem that the most people relate with first. Yeah. I mean, it sounds so obvious when you say it, but it's, it's, it's hard to do. Well

[00:21:36] then you got to get your taglines and everything like, you know, right now we're going to market with, you know, Transform visitors into customers, which is your market as well.

[00:21:45] It's like you're, you're, you're sending traffic, their visitors. Same thing in B2B. Just how do you turn them into a customer?

[00:21:52] I'm, I'm curious your, your perspective on, on this, you know, where in my, in my day job, right, like running advertising agency, obviously we're doing a lot of Optimization on the website always.

[00:22:04] And I think something that we, we, it's surprising that you have to say this, but it's like, you know, marketing doesn't happen inside of a Google ads account or it doesn't happen inside of a Facebook ads account. And like if you're trying to do things inside of that silo only, it's just never going to work.

[00:22:20] Or you have to look at whether it, whether it's like also considering the website, which is something you need to do, or even just considering things more broadly in the context of the business. And like, You know, people, a lot of people are not taking like product specific margins into account or whatever when it comes to the site.

[00:22:33] Right. So there's like the point I'm getting at is that once you start, once you acknowledge that, like we have to look beyond the ad channel or even if it doesn't even have to be an ad channel, it could be, or you could be just distribution because you could have organic, you could be very successful with organic.

[00:22:48] But at the end of the day, you're doing something, whether it's paid ads or organic and you're, That's not free, whether it's organic or paid, it's definitely not free. I was just talking to someone who has built a huge business, never spent a penny on paid, but has built a huge organic presence. Right. That was, you know, she doesn't think organics free, right?

[00:23:06] She's got a huge team to support that. Yeah. And, but so then, then it's like, okay, well I figured that out. I got to, I got distribution that can work. And obviously in real life, it's not so like discreet, but now they come to the site. And. Like even the most basic econ site, you, you could, you could go like, you could go until you're blue in the face, just writing down the little, the different things you're going to test.

[00:23:28] Like let's move the, how many images are we going to show? What image are we going to show? Are we going to show other products below? What color is the button? Like how, how many things are in the nav? How does the nav, how's the nav structured? What's in the footer? How much is on the product? Like on and on and on.

[00:23:42] And like, I'm just curious from, from your point of view as someone that's in, you know, building software for this space. Where do you start when you're talking about maximizing website visitors? Cause it's definitely an infinite game. It's never going to be over.

[00:23:57] The way we've approached it is looking at what's been successful.

[00:24:01] And so email marketing, what have we done there? We've created segments and use workflow automation to engage with those visitors. You

[00:24:12] mean we, as in you would just, you know, the

[00:24:14] market digital market was like, yeah. So you go in, you set up segments, lists, build workflows, and. Then design an email with dynamic fields and users go in and out of list or flows and they get sent these personalized messages that hasn't been done on the website.

[00:24:34] And so as we look at a website and you look at your visitors, it's all about understanding your customer. And so you step back and if you kind of look at from a high level, you have a new visitor and then a repeat visitor, the highest level, a new visitor. Maybe you brought in from a variety of channels.

[00:24:52] Sure. Um, You got to have your conversion goals. So from a new visitor, you want to capture either an email and SMS, and maybe if you can some zero party data, and then you have first party data as well that you then can retarget them through email, SMS, and you can do list suppression on paid, et cetera.

[00:25:15] Then. And they low conversion rate from a new visitor, especially if I'm paid. And they're going to be coming from different channels. Each channel has its different bounce rates, uh, engagement rates. So you want to essentially segment even those new visitors into different groups and, and engage them with different types of promotions.

[00:25:35] So then

[00:25:36] do you mean like, like, okay, someone comes to the site the first time. Maybe you don't want to show them like your best offer right away. But like if it's the third visit and it's like the third time, the second time they've added something to cart.

[00:25:48] So now you're getting, now you're talking about a repeat visitor.

[00:25:50] Okay. Okay. Right. So you have jumped in the gun. Yeah. Jump in the gun. So, you know, it, it goes into consumer psychology as well. This is where a lot of CRO experts are frustrated with pop ups right now is that they're not speaking to the needs of the consumer. You're just starting 10 percent off. It's not what they care.

[00:26:09] As you look at the holistic approach of e commerce and success, you look at. Brands that are successful and Amazon's nailed it. Okay. They understand consumer needs, checkout payment, easy shipping, educate, like tell them, you know, people shop Amazon cause they make it so damn easy and you can trust them.

[00:26:30] So when it comes to new visitors, there's buckets within there. If you look at a repeat visitor, they can either be a customer that's paid you before, or it's a repeat customer that hasn't bought. Right now as we, we often like to look at low hanging fruit. Right now in the market, the biggest opportunity for any business to increase revenue is to look at that repeat customer that, and their time to purchase.

[00:26:59] And this is where we talk about margins and profits. As a retailer, everyone's trying to steal your margin and profit goes the same way. And that's where. You know, about aligning teams within ecosystems and companies. If you can kind of educate your own team about how the company makes money and how we lose margin and everything, they kind of brings everyone together.

[00:27:21] If think about maybe your own shopping experience or people that are listening. If you think about last time you bought something, how many times do you go to that product page?

[00:27:32] I'd say for me it's probably like an 80 20 where 80 percent of the time I've, it's like deliberate. I've been back and forth a lot of times.

[00:27:39] Yeah. And sometimes, sometimes cause I'm thinking about it other times just cause I'm busy, you know, or also has to do with the value and then of the, of the purchase. Right. If it's cheap or expensive, maybe like 20 percent of the time it's just like, Oh, wow. I need this didn't know existed by it right now.

[00:27:53] But the latter is definitely more rare. If you look at that's like lightning in a bottle for a

[00:27:56] consumer brand,

[00:27:57] right?

[00:27:57] And repeat visitors have a higher conversion rate as well. Just across the board for some visitor. So it's that time to purchase that is. Is where a lot of money is being lost in the market.

[00:28:08] Do you

[00:28:08] mean time to purchase from first visit?

[00:28:10] Yeah, so second visit, third visit, fourth visit. Like, you have to pay to retarget them to get to the website. Yeah. You know, you have to send emails, you have to SMS. It costs money to get someone to your website. So do, our message is, let's understand their needs and get, do whatever we can to get them to purchase.

[00:28:27] on whatever visit it is.

[00:28:29] And so what are, like, when you're, when you start walking down that path early on, you know, you talk about like, well, hanging fruit, what are, and I know this is going to be like wildly different from business to business, but like, are there any, when it comes to optimizing for conversion, like we said, like there's a million things that you could do.

[00:28:47] Are there a lot of common areas where you're like, You know, make sure you're nailing A, B and C before you start worrying about everything else.

[00:28:54] Yeah, I mean, you can get caught up in visuals and everything. Um, the most common thing I tell people is ask them, when was the last time you shopped your website?

[00:29:05] That's a good one.

[00:29:06] And it's amazing how people have it. And, you know, 99. 9 percent of websites can be optimized. And, and it, it goes to retention as well. Like. You talk about first time purchase, well, second time purchase, in order to get someone to buy a second time, they have to have a good experience. So when you look at e commerce right now, in, in the last mile, once you've gone to the website, it goes beyond that because once you make the purchase, it then falls into the shipping department, land warehousing,

[00:29:39] make sure it gets, it goes fast.

[00:29:41] It goes fast. Because with, you know, with Amazon, you know exactly when you're going to get it and it's going to show up. And not only that returns are going to be easy. So it goes again into understanding that the consumer psychology of shoppers, making sure you're speaking to them. Through the process.

[00:29:58] So you ask, you know, what are other, some of the key things you should be talking to him about? Well, it goes down to your goals. You know, if, if you're a life cycle marketer, you know, your goal might be to the, you know, your CMO maybe gave you a directive to increase your loyalty fan base. So what I would recommend is to activate the loyalty lion flow in just, you know, and what does that mean?

[00:30:26] Well, that means, And they use Loyalty Line for their, their loyalty program. It means they activate it means any visitor that comes in that is already a customer and not. a member of their loyalty program, they are going to be shown a welcome back. You're a loyal customer. We think you would benefit from our loyalty program.

[00:30:51] So it's a segment. So we start thinking about our website visitors and segments based off your goals.

[00:30:56] Do you, will you like show them products based on their prior purchase history and stuff or?

[00:31:02] That one I love is that think about, um, Amazon, you go to Amazon and the homepage has all the items you've looked at.

[00:31:10] Carousels. So, uh, we have a, a AI product recommendation tool that you can embed it into the site in different sections. It pulls this data and, and shows them based off whatever algorithm you want to run off.

[00:31:22] Yeah. I think that is, I wonder your perspective on this as someone that's built, built a business around, you know, like, I mean, tell me if you would put it differently, but you built a business around optimizing checkout flows or not checkout flows, but consumer websites, right?

[00:31:36] Direct to consumer website.

[00:31:37] Turning website visitors into customers.

[00:31:39] Yeah. And. You started that business 14 years ago and Amazon was very different, a shell of its current self 14 years ago. And I feel like you can't really talk about e com consumer. You know, that kind of like over that time period without thinking about, okay, like, what's the impact been on that Amazon has had?

[00:32:00] And do you think part of like, I mean, this is a super weeding question. I'm sorry, but like, I feel like it's kind of an arms race, right? Like Amazon's got billions of dollars. They're putting into optimizing every corner of everything. And then Consumers, because we all shop on Amazon, I feel like that there's probably some, you know, marketing psychologist that has a good answer to this, but I'm sure that that experience that all these consumers are buying through Amazon now, our expectation of a good website is Amazon.

[00:32:23] So then to a degree, probably part of this is like, how can you kind of get a little bit of that Amazon sprinkle of quality stuff into your website, but we all don't have billions of dollars in R and D.

[00:32:33] So you need, you need to find smart technology partners that understand that are building tools for that.

[00:32:39] And that's where I like to see where we fit in. You know, when I, when we going back 14 years, when we talked with retailers, I would tell them and go, look, you got to understand your users are going to your website and they know there's a coupon out there. They're,

[00:32:57] they're

[00:32:57] going, opening up a new website. I don't think we had tabs back then.

[00:33:01] They were opening up a new browser, and going to

[00:33:05] RetailMeNot,

[00:33:05] finding a coupon code, clicking it, and are costing you 20%, you know, a percentage of that deal you're paying to RetailMeNot. To affiliate driven websites because they know what consumer habits are. And now there's, you know, honey. It's doing the same thing.

[00:33:23] It's like that. That's a, uh, something that's happening, right? So fast forward to today, when I'm talking with retailers is, and you mentioned, what are the, like, the core things you should look at when with, with CRO is, are you aware that your consumers are going to your website shopping and going, I wonder if I could get this on Amazon for free shipping and faster?

[00:33:50] That's what I do. So I don't trust the brand because they haven't spoken to me.

[00:33:54] Well, the experience is a lot of times much better if you just go buy the same thing through

[00:33:57] Amazon. And, and, but I could, but they don't get any customer data. They don't get anything. So how do you combat that? The way you do it is you speak to the consumer's needs.

[00:34:08] So when you look at a website, the top things they can do is look at, am I answering the questions that my consumers have? Will they ship it to me fast? Will I have to pay for shipping? Will returns be a pain in the butt? Um, can I trust this company? Do they value customer service? Basic consumer needs are not answered on most websites.

[00:34:32] Yeah. And then the follow up is reviews. Is this, you know, um, I want to read the reviews. Does the product page have good reviews? Have reviews, period. And then, you know, with the payment is, you know, is payment going to be easy? So trustworthy and trustworthy. So, you know, as you mentioned, Amazon, you know, Shopify is, is under the market right now and they're heavily looking at how to replicate the, the Amazon experience.

[00:35:02] They've launched shop pay.

[00:35:03] Yep.

[00:35:03] I think they're calling it shop now. Um, that's their, one of their answers.

[00:35:08] When I'm at the place, my head immediately goes, when I hear you talking about this and it feels. It feels like now that you've said it, it feels like so, so I don't want to say obvious, but like it feels not to like diminish it.

[00:35:19] Right. But like for any brand, your website should probably be the best place to buy your product. In a way. Do you, would you agree with that? Or it

[00:35:27] should be, but there's probably

[00:35:29] cases where maybe Amazon centric brands or something, maybe it doesn't, you're selling like, I don't know, organic toilet paper or whatever.

[00:35:35] Maybe people are just always going to, they'd rather buy that through Amazon. But like, if you're not that, I

[00:35:39] mean, you talk about like agency services and, and SAS services, SAS companies offering services. It's the same thing where brands traditionally were fantastic at building incredible product and marketing the hell out of it historically.

[00:35:55] And then as the internet came around and directed consumer came around, they recognized they could say margin go direct to consumer. So they started a retail, but they don't know how to retail. DTC brands, they're better, but other large scale brands drop the ball. They don't understand retail. Retail is a beast.

[00:36:18] It's very difficult. And so, um, you know, going back to the, the question of, um, what was the question? I think it was just

[00:36:29] around, like, it was, I mean, it was more of a statement. I was just like the, I think like what I hear when you talk about a lot of this is just like, you have to, and it's, this is the part where it's like, maybe it's an obvious, it sounds obvious, but a lot of companies don't do it where it's like, just make your own website the best place to buy your product.

[00:36:43] That's all right. Yeah,

[00:36:45] it should invest

[00:36:46] that money. It's worth it.

[00:36:47] It should be. And, but again, oftentimes isn't. Yeah. And maybe because just leadership in the company, whatever it is, they don't realize that there could be having, they could be doing more with it, but you know, business is business. Maybe they're more focused on fixing their wholesale.

[00:37:09] Yeah, of course. You know, it's like priority in the projects

[00:37:12] and the present value of all them. And this one website's number four.

[00:37:16] Yeah,

[00:37:16] and just is what it is,

[00:37:17] you know, and, but that's where you look at channels. And I, I think the, the website channel over the next five, 10 years is going to become even more powerful retails, you know, online retail is still, you know, sub 20 percent of retail.

[00:37:31] Um, it got, you know, was 8 percent ish, but then COVID fast forwarded it. Yeah. Um, and now we're settling back down from, you know, we're in the dust of, of that growth.

[00:37:42] Yeah. And I

[00:37:43] restructuring.

[00:37:44] I'd imagine that in, in like e commerce, I mean we're certainly have e commerce clients of course, and they sell on, on Amazon and stuff, but it's like, it feels like a similar thing as people talk about with like, you influencers talk about how you have to own your own audience.

[00:37:59] So then that's why they'll start like a. newsletter or something like that to get out of LinkedIn or meta or whatever. And there's kind of that corollary to this and the consumer side where it's like, you don't, you don't just want to have everything relying on a marketplace, even if that works really well today, it's just not very future proof.

[00:38:17] Then something happens. It's there. I'll go.

[00:38:20] Well, you, you know, you talk about us being a self funded company. It's, you, you, you have to build a sustainable business. You have to have people really smart about, You're, you're marketing and like, you have to be really creative and, you know, pay to play, you know, it's not, there's not, it's not long term.

[00:38:39] Yeah. What if they raise the price? Right now, you know, we're, you know, I do talk with a lot of, you know, retailers, um, I do get the chance and the, you know, the, the third, third party. You know, with the privacy changes with Apple, just decimated a lot of businesses, you know, in your world, you know, it to add

[00:39:02] driven, you know, they had a great business and overnight, it's just a

[00:39:05] third party cookie has changed a lot of lives, a lot of businesses, businesses, I've got people have gone out of business for sure, because they, they can't get a 10 X return, you know, at two X and you know, they can't get funding because they can't show growth.

[00:39:19] Uh, we're in a really difficult time right now, and so people are, and, but it's during those hard times that people, you know, roll up their sleeves, and, and come together. And if they can come out of it, they'll be even that much stronger and more successful. And I think that's what we're seeing right now.

[00:39:35] I

[00:39:36] think this is going to feel, I feel like this is going to be me just like teeing one off for you. I hope, but I, I was talking with, uh, Charlie who was in here with me earlier. He's, you know, totally different space, right? He's leads marketing at a company called Finch B2B. Right. Uh, but what we were talking about and he was asking me about this is like what we're seeing in our space kind of.

[00:39:56] Yeah. Well, we started seeing where as a marketing agency is like earlier this year, you know, venture capital drying up, obviously different environment. That was before earlier this year feels, you know, the years bore together. Right. But like we're in that period, uh, or that shift has kind of happened or is happening.

[00:40:11] And, and the, the thing that we noticed, I guess this was an hour actually at the beginning of last year, it's like, okay, well in the outbound messaging, like things like SEO, like no one, no one wants SEO. It's too, it takes too long. Right. Then like paid people will like American

[00:40:26] business. Once that's, you know,

[00:40:27] yeah.

[00:40:27] Cause gee, the whole, that's a whole other thing. Well, no, because,

[00:40:30] right. No, we're hyper consumers. We just want to spend, spend, spend. You know, if you go to Europe, they value the dollar, they value currency a lot more than, and so they invest into SEO is one of the most sustainable things you can invest into invest into, but here in the U S we had so much money and everything.

[00:40:48] It was like, yeah, whatever we can buy our way out of this.

[00:40:50] Yeah, that's interesting. I have never thought about that. That's cool. But where I was, the thing that I was thinking about is just like that in this environment where people are kind of tightening, tightening their belts, the thing that everyone wants to do is conversion rate optimization because it feels like, oh, okay, well, we're already spending all this budget on paid.

[00:41:10] We're already spending all this budget on organic, like, And if we go spend a little effort on CRO, like it should just make the math equation work better.

[00:41:19] Remember when, uh, with email marketing people used to say, what's an email worth to you?

[00:41:23] Yeah.

[00:41:24] We can now say what's a visitor worth to you?

[00:41:26] Yeah.

[00:41:27] I'm going to use that.

[00:41:28] That's a good one. Yeah. And you got it on camera too.

[00:41:31] I mean, if you think about those people, you know, when you're growing at. You know, a hundred percent, what's, what's 2%? Who cares? I'm not going to focus on optimizing. Depends how

[00:41:42] many days in a row you get 2 percent growth. Cause that's a hundred percent pretty fast.

[00:41:46] I mean, that's, you know,

[00:41:47] the thing is, is that. People didn't need to optimize. We're living large in fact, now that we aren't, I feel like it's healthy and now we can talk about conversion and that people are like, Oh, a visitor. Yeah. There is value to every single visitor because I have to focus and squeeze as much out of every single one.

[00:42:07] So, um, you know, I think it's been really healthy for the market in that sense. You have Shopify talking about the highest converting checkout. That's it. Big tagline right now. Um, you couldn't mention the word conversion, you know, three years ago, five years ago, people still, they got it, but they were like, yeah, whatever.

[00:42:29] I'm good.

[00:42:29] They

[00:42:29] just

[00:42:29] weren't thinking

[00:42:30] about it. It wasn't

[00:42:30] on their radar. I'm with conversion and I started to keep going back to this, but I, I'm, and we kind of started talking about this a little bit, but like what experience, what are you testing first on the site? Like you mentioned some of this stuff with like the user returning user flows and stuff like that.

[00:42:48] And I'm curious, are you thinking more about, There's so much value in like those kinds of personalized experiences. That's really, you know, it's not worth thinking about all the other stuff. Or are you also doing like. You know, changing stuff around on product pages and, and move. Like how micro do you think you need to get when you're testing this stuff versus like more, cause I think of things like a modal or like what you mentioned, that's pretty macro.

[00:43:13] Well,

[00:43:13] yeah. So macro would be more like lead capture, you know, if you want to have the. If you want to increase your lead capture rate by 200 percent today, do a full screen takeover.

[00:43:24] What's that?

[00:43:25] That means when they land on the page, you're going to see a pop up that is a full screen.

[00:43:29] Okay.

[00:43:29] There's no way around it.

[00:43:31] You have to engage.

[00:43:32] How do you think then though about how something like that's going to impact bounce rate? Cause like you might get more emails, but you also might,

[00:43:37] I'll tell you one thing, it's going to reduce your conversion rate.

[00:43:41] The full screen takeover. Yeah. And so you, then you have to ask, What's the email worth in relation to the conversion rate hit?

[00:43:47] So if you're an email marketer and your boss has said you need to get an email list of 500, 000, guess what? And you control the marketing on the website, guess what you're going to go after? You're going to go after emails. Now, is that healthy for the business? That person's not going to get fired because they're going to, they're going to show up.

[00:44:07] Look, I got us all these emails.

[00:44:09] Conversion rates. Yeah.

[00:44:11] You know, and most companies still don't even have, um, if I, if I had a different type of company, I would hire a CRO person. First thing I, you know, like the, uh, the CRO, you know, chief revenue officer should be, you know, chief conversion rate officer.

[00:44:27] Yeah. Cause now there's, there's, you know, chief revenue officer, like, Why is there not a conversion officer? Um, cause they would, they would be able to balance this out. So to the micro level, yes. You know, and that's where we talk about segments to get to micro you have to have segments so you can do an embedded widget that, um, is on pricing or shipping.

[00:44:48] Like let's say somebody does engage with a, has engaged either this visit or prior visits and they have a coupon code. We can have a dynamic widget on the pricing page, auto applying that discount.

[00:45:01] That's huge.

[00:45:02] Um, show them

[00:45:03] the smaller number before,

[00:45:04] um, uh, the one, uh, ones I love are dynamic shipping banners where if they add items to the cart, the banner will change to tell you how much money you have left before, before free shipping.

[00:45:14] Uh,

[00:45:15] the, the other ones, like if someone's exiting and you've already captured their email and they're on a product page, uh, a firm, uh, uh, a partner of ours is why not Shama. Papa go. Hey. You know, reminder, you can, you can pay for this in payments. It'll be this much, this much, just, just to remind you.

[00:45:36] So were you guys with, with something like the email capture thing, are you guys ever doing things like, I would imagine all, you know, all else equal.

[00:45:46] The, the value of a first time visitor's email is probably lower than the value of a second or third time visitor, right? Like what does this, if you

[00:45:51] haven't capped, if you haven't captured it. Yeah, yeah, sure. Right.

[00:45:54] Like just all else equal. You're more the first time someone visits, they're more likely to, to You know, be a greater population.

[00:46:00] They might not be the customer. They might come there and be like, Oh, this sells, you know, camera lens caps. I was looking for lenses. This is a whole different thing. So, so intuitively it feels like, okay, like you're better off getting the email a little later. Are you guys doing, is that the kind of thing you're doing where it's like, okay, now you can say second or third visit.

[00:46:17] Go capture the email. Is that like, is that what we're talking about?

[00:46:20] Yeah. And that's where you just set them up in the flows where like, if we don't have an email yet, we're going to be messaging them something different. And then as soon as we capture that email, they'll, they're moving the flow down to another series of engagements.

[00:46:33] Do you guys, is there like day partying in this? You know what I mean? Like if, like, let's say you want to get this. Email list, but you don't necessarily want to be all or one with the full, all or none with a full screen takeover like, well, okay, let's run it for like 30 minutes, 10 times a day or, Oh yeah, AB

[00:46:50] test.

[00:46:51] Yeah, multivariate everything. It's

[00:46:53] pretty

[00:46:53] cool. Yeah. The AB testing is something that, um, that the market loves. You know, especially like optimizely, like, as you talk about like digital marketers, they, you know, that's the big conversation is they'd be testing, like, can we do this? It's like, uh, which is how you really, truly test things and optimize and everything.

[00:47:15] I think there's an important balance of it. And that's where they should lean on us and our technology to like, you know, run all these other instances and auto apply them so that we know best. We know best cause we have all the data, but the reality of life is that people don't have time to AB test.

[00:47:34] Yeah.

[00:47:36] And then they end up just like whacking them together and it's like, Oh, let's go see if the green button or the blue button works better. And it's like, is that really going to?

[00:47:42] You know, it's, it's how do we, you know, it's like, which, you know, as we talk about segments and flows and first, which, which, how do we segment our visitors to speak to them and understand them and then let's speak to them.

[00:47:55] Then we can worry about, you know, copying.

[00:47:58] Yeah. How do you, how do you guys think about like structuring tests and experiments? And obviously this is, this has to be data driven. But then it's also super easy to lie to yourself with data. And like, I love this with marketer always, you know, coming from a finance background.

[00:48:13] Cause you talk about like, you know, you always hear marketers talking about statistical significance and then I'm like, how long did this test run for? And they're like a month. And it's like, okay, does your business have seasonality? And it's like, yeah. And it's okay. So. So you're telling me that you ran a test for a month.

[00:48:24] We agree your business has seasonality. You're now going to go and apply this in production and, but we just agreed that there's seasonality. So I used to say that this also works and maybe that's not the best example, but the point being that like it's, where do you draw the line between making sure that you have enough statistical rigor to make sure that you're not just like, you know, seeing numbers and running around like a headless chicken while not making it so over the top complex that you can never.

[00:48:48] iterate and it slows things down too much.

[00:48:51] The, you know, it's one thing to have data. It's another take action on it.

[00:48:55] Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:56] It's just a report. You know, the Everyone loves a fancy report. Yeah. You know, I often when, when When my team comes to me, like, we're going to run this test. I go, okay, great.

[00:49:06] Show me the last test you did. What did we learn from it? Where's the test? And this doesn't always happen, but I try to remind them like, look, before we invest resources in this, let's make sure we know we're going to, Leverage it.

[00:49:19] So it's kind of like what I, it's like a culture setting, setting a culture of documentation.

[00:49:23] Yeah.

[00:49:24] The other is, um, you know, there's things you can program it in the software where it's like, Hey, whatever one wins after a month, just auto run that little things like that can be programmed in to help help the user.

[00:49:37] Yeah, that's cool. I, I like, I like the taking it back to like the documentation side of things.

[00:49:41] That's cool. Like, cause you know, it's easy to go to, okay, like how do we make do the math better? Well, it's like, maybe just, you just like write down what your hypothesis was beforehand and like what the outcome was and it kind of keeps you accountable. Yeah. He doesn't necessarily have to be this, like this was the standard error on the experiment and we are, you know, we have a 90, this confidence interval and the Z score is right.

[00:49:59] I get, um, I get, I get an email. It'll come to me. Uh, he was the former CFO of Shopify. Um,

[00:50:05] Toby,

[00:50:06] uh, no, he was the CEO. Um, It'll not McDonald. It'll come to put it in. Yeah. Um, yeah, he ran sure path capital. Now he's just doing consulting and he had this great advice on the along the lines of that of whenever you make a decision, just put in a log and put what your mindset was at the time.

[00:50:28] Put it in a lock into

[00:50:29] a log, a log. Okay. You know, and we often find ourselves in our company, you know, six months later, like, wait, okay. When did we do that? And why did we do that again?

[00:50:41] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's something very simple. Groundhog day too, honestly, and test the same thing a year later.

[00:50:45] Yeah. And so, but yeah, you know, back to your, your AB testing.

[00:50:50] What I want people to start is first with AB test different segments, like engage with visitors based off of different. you know, goals and, and, and their segments and, and let them work, go through a workflow.

[00:51:07] Yeah. I mean that, that intuitively feels like a, I would imagine, like I don't own a consumer business, but I would imagine that if you looked at the distribution of like customers and lifetime spend or spend by year, It's probably going to be something like the top 10 percent of customers or the top 20 percent of customers make up 80 percent of the purchases.

[00:51:25] And would you have you, is that, do you think that's a false assumption or do you think it's that kind of

[00:51:30] the 80, 20 rule something, you know,

[00:51:32] you know, something to that effect. I don't want to suggest that it's so, so precise, but just that a smaller cohort of the customers makes up an outsized portion of the value, which then to me, if I'm going backwards, then I'm like, Okay, well then how do we make, how do we get more out of those?

[00:51:48] My main, you know, my main hope is that people understand their customers better, their visitors better. I think once we can get people to look at their customers, you know, just like email marketing, you AB test emails, 100 percent just as you should AB test your website, you know, there's a lot of little changes you can do to optimize your site, but that's just a.

[00:52:09] a byproduct of the structure you're going, you're looking to do, which is, you know, segmenting your visitors again, you know, understanding who they are, having data behind them, and then figuring out which one you want to target. And right now that repeat visitor on a high level, I feel like is the most misunderstood.

[00:52:28] consumer segment in the entire industry in the next two to five years. There's going to be a lot of money made by the brands that focus in on that.

[00:52:36] You're reading my mind right there because I was looking at my watch and we got like, you know, 10 minutes before you got to get on the road. And I, I was kind of curious, like in closing, you obviously have a, you know, very unique line into this specific area.

[00:52:50] Cause it's what you're, it's what you do all day. Right? Mike. Where do you, where do you, however you would define this space conversion rate optimization or maximizing the value of the people on the website or whatever it may be, where do you see this going in the next one to two years? Like, what are the, is it repeat visitors?

[00:53:07] Is that what people really need to be thinking about? Or like, what do you think are the, like, I don't know if we want to say like seismic shifts or trends you're seeing. I mean, you were just at shop talk. You're talking to, I'm sure you're talking to tons of people there in the space. You have that view.

[00:53:18] Like where, what do people, what do people, if someone's listening to this and they run a consumer business, what do they need to be thinking about?

[00:53:24] Well, in your opinion, well, today they're reeling with the third party cookie update still,

[00:53:29] still

[00:53:30] customer acquisition costs are, are unsustainable right now.

[00:53:34] And so they're having to look inward to their business. And as you look inward, you look at, you know, a channel that is not optimized. And it's their website and it's not optimal. And the reason it's not optimized 99, you're not, they're not alone. You're most websites are not optimized. And the reason being is going back to, uh, Dave Gerhard and, um, Donald Miller is no one's taught, taught anyone how to do

[00:54:01] it.

[00:54:01] There's no, there's no web optimization. Yeah. Maybe now somewhere.

[00:54:04] Yeah. Maybe there is, but you know, we certainly know what we're doing with email marketing,

[00:54:09] right?

[00:54:09] And marketing automation there. And as you look at investments, uh, into Q3, uh, Q4 last year and Q1 of this year, marketing automation is one of the top investment categories.

[00:54:21] Um, and so we know that we're gonna, you know, let's take that success that we've had in your off, offline channels and apply it to your, your website. It's like, it's like, yeah, why not?

[00:54:35] Yeah. It feels so, like, duh. Why wouldn't we be doing that?

[00:54:41] As you say, you know, every visitor costs more. There's so much added value to it.

[00:54:45] So, that's why I'm excited for these next few years is just as we educated the market on pop ups, we're going to educate them now on turning those visitors into customers. Yeah. What, what, what are your social channels? Yeah. Uh, Eric, uh, obviously justino.com and obviously just, you know, throw my LinkedIn profile in there and put that show in the show notes.

[00:55:05] I'm pretty accessible. Uh, the Conversion Show, podcast, uh, bring retailers on, uh, talk about, you know, what they're dealing with and, um, yeah.